Wednesday, June 21, 2000

Mark Tripp - Combatives 11 (Women's Self-defense)



Mark Tripp's Combatives 11

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Subject: Combatives 11
From: MTripp
Date: 22-May-00 | 07:55 AM

I will be clinical here. But I REALLY wish I had a women instructor who would teach this part to the women cause I sure get red when I have to...

There are only three ways a woman can be raped. Forced oral. Forced intercourse man on top. Forced intercourse man behind.

I understand you can get creative about intercourse up against the wall and stuff; but that requires a willing partner. Let's keep it basic.

Core skill here is gripping strength; kicking from the ground and kicking to stand up (aka butt scoot, Gracie get-up, or ground get-up); chin jab/tiger claw; and elbows.

But the most IMPORTANK skill in dealing with a rape attempt is to shift the attackers focus from beating you into submission to get what he wants and make him believe you are going to give him EXACTLY what he wants. This is called playing porn star!

Let me be clear; I do NOT beleive it is EVER a good idea to take a fighting stance and scream NO as so many silly self-defense programs for women teach. What you have just done is TELL your attacker what is comming. This is just wrong.

Better to convince him you are not going to fight! You are NOT going to let him do anything to YOU either, but let's keep that between US for now! Tell him he is cute. Ask him about his dick (use the word). Tell him you've always wanted to do it in a parking lot, or an elevator, or whatever Do NOT get in his car or go into an alley. Distract him with all the sex talk he hears on those movies he watches. Make him think he has found his dream victim!

All the time you are looking for your BEST shot to make this sorry piece of crap wish he had NEVER been born.

An example of why this works best is; if you just grab for his groin you could miss; or find out he has a cup on. Now he is enraged and it will be that much harder to finish him. BUT, if you "feel around" as you tell him how hot you are; you will get your hand right on the target (the testies not the penius); or find out if there is a cup there and change your attacking plan.

Lets deal with them in order.

Forced Oral

Simple concept. Woman can close a #2 gripper (195 lbs of crushing force); Man wants to put private parts near there. Even without hands we have that "Last house on the Left" technique; also done on "OZ" last season (bite it off).

Here the person plays along with the attacker; even helping him with his pants. Once you see the testies; CRUSH THEM. Assuming you are on your knees here; roll to your left or right hip and begin the ground kicking/kick to get up drill.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 22-May-00 | 07:55 AM

Intercourse - Man on Top.

First, he has to get your clothes off. This is a good time to twist left or right and begin the ground kicking thing again.

If that moment didn't present itself; keep in mind he HAS to be inside the womans guard to do this!!! This is why women even more than men MUST have powerful guard techniques. A simple and easy one (remember our grip strength) is to reach under and crush the testies! Using the hips to move him back then pulling him into a chin jab/tiger claw is also effective. If trained well; the arm locks from there work for them too.
Again, once the hard atemi is in; kick into the get up position; then get up and punt!

Intercourse - behind.

Again, the chothes have to come off. During this you can twist left or right and we again are back to the ground kicking game.

If that moment passed you can always reach between your legs and crush as you turn and use your elbow to get from under him, then again we are back to kicking.

These should be made into drills (golf balls in a sock hooked into your belt works well). Work them as you would any other ground fighting exercise.

Yes; I understand we can create impossible escapes here. 5 guys and a gun to your head for example. But that serves no purpose. Most likely this will be one on one; and we will get to weapons later.
But speaking of weapons... Notice how much better for the women this would be if she had a PPD in these drills???

Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 22-May-00 | 08:22 AM
Excellent. A very well thought-out post.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: menapace
Date: 22-May-00 | 09:32 AM
MTripp: What are the tiger claw and chin jab? Are they palm strikes? And are they as effective as western boxing punches?

Subject: RE: INFO
From: Fan
Date: 22-May-00 | 10:45 AM
Im interested in your ideas on women's self defense, Mr. Tripp. Im a CO who has worked in lots of sex offender units, and I would like to teach a "rapesafe" type class. Lots of conflicting opinions in both the Law Enforcement circle, and the MA circle in this particular area.

Im particularly interested in how you would structure this. The best DT trainer I ever had just wont teach womens SD anymore out of frustration. Too much to do in too little time. Problems he found were women's attitudes towards violence, attitudes towards men, ability to deal with intimidation. There are many women who would rather be raped than "hurt" another human being(hard for men to believe). There are LOTS of social issues that need to be addressed in this type of training.

How would you address this, or just train those who are "ready" to deal with it?

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 22-May-00 | 11:22 AM

To expect a woman; or a man for that matter; to use a fist with success in a combative situation is just foolish. For some highly trained people perhaps. Keep in mind that in the early days of the UFC, when they didn't allow taped hands, lots of highly trained people broke their hands.

The chin jab/tiger claw is a heel hand strike to the jaw followed up with an immediate strike to the eyes. The push back on the chin gets the opponent to lean forward and his push; along with gripping strength, make this a major fight stopper. Fairbairn taught it for years, as did Applegate. I am just carrying on the tradition.
As to what and how to teach. The two books I told you to get in Combatives 10 will help. But getting some women to be willing to hurt someone is going to be rough. You may have to obtain some hard hitting photos of what is left after a rape/murder to make your point.

Clearly pointing out that taking a person's word who is raping you, that they are not going to kill you, is very foolish indeed.

I can go into greater detail if need be.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 22-May-00 | 11:46 AM
Even more great stuff!!!!

Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 22-May-00 | 05:58 PM
The issue of rape and sex crimes against women and young people is a tough topic to talk about. I have had close friends and relatives that have been assaulted. I was amazed when I accompanied one of these people to a group meeting as to how many people are assaulted. I also found it appaulling that these people had not the slightest (lagitimate),idea of how to defend themselves or even how to avoid situations like that all together. It's hard for me to understand how another human being can not want to defend themselves in the face of rape, maiming or death. I been in some bad places and I've seen some bad things. It's scary. I have two daughters and pray to the Lord that they will have the piece of mind and courage to defend themselves if the situation ever arises. I assure you they will have the knowledge. I'm a firm believer that living with the mental problems after consenting to such stuff is far worse than fighting back. I've seen the results in person. All women and especialy young girls should be taught that fighting for thier dignity is a just cause. An attacker may take your body but never let them take your diginity. Fight back. Get some satisfaction. Most of the time attackers are looking for an easy target. Don't make it easy. Wounds of the flesh will heal. Some wounds of the mind and soul never heal.

Subject: Rape
From: djb
Date: 22-May-00 | 08:40 PM
About a month ago I posted a thread on the OtherGround titled 'how is rape physically possible'. The next day I was banned. I'm still a little peeved about that, but glad I can ask my questions again. I don't think I was insensitive last time, but I'll try and do even better here.

I brought the topic up here, because the people in this forum know much better than the general public the power of the guard position: There are 2 arms and 2 legs available to control the person in the guard. I was trying to ask the question: Can a rapist get enough control in this position, or does the rape succeed because the woman is scared into stopping her resistance?

For example: Orangutans are have opposable big toes, and thus can grasp with their feet just like their hands. If men's feet worked this way, rape on a resisting woman would be possible; in guard position, the rapist would grab woman's ankles with his feet, and control woman's arms with his arms.

This is not possible, so it seems as though a woman would always have feet free to kick with, or arms free to poke eyes with. Do you agree, or am I overlooking something?

If I am right, does that mean that I think that women want to be raped, or deserve it, or cause their own rape? I don't see how that follows. I am suggesting that women are either battered unconscious (in which case they can't resist), or select getting raped rather than beaten AND raped. They stop resisting because of the threat of violence.

If I had a daughter, I would train her in self defense, but also I would try to impress on her my reasons for thinking it desirable for her to struggle even if she is pretty sure she will not be able to escape. I will give my reasons in a future post if there seems to be interest.

Subject: wisdom of distracting rapists with sex talk?
From: djb
Date: 22-May-00 | 08:47 PM
I question whether this is a good idea in a date rape situation, or any potential rape where the attemping-rapist is known to the woman.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 22-May-00 | 08:49 PM

Ok; here is what you are missing, in plain English...

I punch the living shit out of you until you just lay there and then I do what I want.


I choke the living crap out of you until you are senseless and then I do what I want.


I tell you to do everything I say or I will kill you, or your husband, or your child, and you believe me, so you let me do what I want.

Need I go on?

Did I answer your question?

Rape, by defination, is foracable sexual contact. Force is the key concept here. Threat of violence to you or a loved one is force. Showing a weapon is force. Beating/Choking you is force. Saying you will be fired if you don't do this is force.

Thinking better of your actions is not force; neither is the check bouncing.

Let's keep that clear in our heads and fixed in our training programs.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: djb
Date: 22-May-00 | 09:09 PM
What am I missing that I am not able to make this explicit enough?

By my definitions, one must be conscious to resist. If you are unconsious, you have stopped resisting. You didn't WANT to stop resisting, you would start resisting again if you could (maybe you will come to and start to again), but for the period you are unconsious, you are not resisting, and not subject to the argument that 'rape is not possible on (actively? violently? do I need a modifier here?) resisting person'.

If you stop resisting because someone cocks a fist at you, threatens to kill you etc., of course force is being used against you. The fact that a person chooses to not poke someone in the eyes, because she thinks that she will get killed if she does it, to my mind means she stops resisting. It doesn't mean they would not prefer some other circumstances, it just means they physically stop hitting, poking etc. This is not a way-out definition of 'resistance' is it? To me it does not seem so, but others must feel differently, because I think I have accounted for the situations you have described (and I did in the earlier thread I mentioned), but the reaction I get is as if I am using 'resist' in an unusual way. I don't think that I am.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: jayman
Date: 22-May-00 | 11:10 PM
I have to agree with djb on this one.
There are certain legal ramifications as well. It could be implied that the victim wanted sex. "well she kept telling me how much she wanted me" etc,etc.

The physical assult is a given as rape is no less traumatic and physically damaging as getting beaten. Part of the reason women are assulted is due to the fact that they can look like victims, with the exception of those that have taken some legitimate self defense courses - that not only emphasize the physical technique, but instill self confidence and assertiveness.

The only issue I have here is the sex talk. I'm all for playing possum - I think its the correct strategy, but your attacker is either going to get more enraged because your trying to play him for a fool - or he is not going to just rape you once.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 23-May-00 | 04:31 AM
If I were a woman, I'd rather do whatever it took to avoid being raped and worry about how it looked in court later.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 23-May-00 | 07:56 AM

"The only issue I have here is the sex talk. I'm all for playing possum - I think its the correct strategy, but your attacker is either going to get more enraged because your trying to play him for a fool - or he is not going to just rape you once."

This would assume that you are going to get raped after your "sex talk". I reject that assumption.

The "sex talk" moves a person from the concept of beating or choking you into compliance to the "oh, this is going to be easy" mind set.

The "sex talk" covers that you are moving into position to do far more dammange than those "tae-bo" moves that so many "I am woman hear me roar" types think will drop an attacker.

Perhaps you know something I do not; but I am VERY sure that 195lbs of crushing force applied to the eye or the testies will prevent a rape VERY quickly. I know for a FACT that 1/4 inch penatration into the eye; or that kind of crushing force to the balls will shut a person off RIGHT THEN.

To my way of thinking; that is the BEST shot the AVERAGE woman has to end this thing. It is what my wife would do; and it is what I would want her to do.

Now to "resisting".

I think you are missing my point. I can understand the concept of "the alamo". There are things that can happen that prevent defense or demand co-operation with no resistance.

It is my position that following the 4 rules and the principles of personal defense will keep one from facing the "alamo".

But it is not for me, or anyone, to second guess someone who was in that awful situation and did the best they could.

It IS my job to help people avoid, evade, and if all else fails repel such an assault.

That is all I am trying to do.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: jayman
Date: 23-May-00 | 01:04 PM
You know something Mr. Tripp, you really suprise me.

When I wrote the above post, I thought "oh boy, hes going to tear me up for diasagreeing with him", but your response was clear and insightful.

and to think I am a BJJ guy too -lol

thanks for the response.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: cudgel
Date: 23-May-00 | 05:32 PM
I have a couple of small comments.

1. Would somebody PLEASE get women to stop running at night (or in the day) with their damned CD player earphones plugged in? I live in a university town and walk my dog at night on a running path and see this all the time. There really should be a law against this.

2. DJB, I'm not sure where you're going with the resistance thing. There is another response that occurs frequently in rape type situations other than fight or flight - this is panic/shock/near catatonia. A person can be literally paralyzed with fear. This is one area where some of the role playing scenario type training really comes in handy - a woman can hopefully train to avoid paralysis by experiencing close fits to the actual physiological/psychological response and learning to deal with it better.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: nowaydo
Date: 25-May-00 | 01:15 AM

Mr. Tripp,

Great Post!

I made comments about the Rape Prevention and Self Defense class I teach on a post a few weeks ago.
I got slammed because I teach women to fight from the guard. I do teach the "submissive, but deadly" technique to engage the aggressor into a false sense of security and let his guard down.

I teach the "palm-heel" strike, eye jabs, tiger claw to the face and eagle claw(flesh grabs). I also teach to pinch, grab and kick away on the ground, but if that fails applying an armlock(whether it works or not, she's out of the rape position) If the armlock is successful, I teach to snap and kick him away..then run!

Any critics?

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 25-May-00 | 06:02 AM

The idea on the armlock out of the guard is to use it to make him pull his arm back.

When a person "pulls back" the combative concept here is to "follow the line of withdraw" to strike him as his "defense" is moving back and can't change motion. It is in essence a free hit.

Bringing the leg ocer chambers it for a powerful head kick. If the arm breaks fine. If not the withdraw opens the face for the boot.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: VinceB
Date: 25-May-00 | 02:16 PM
To illustrate the insanity that goes on..

Last year (or 1998) the Italian Supreme Court overturned a rape conviction because the woman was wearing tight jeans. Their legal opinion was that she must have been cooperative to get the jeans off.
MTripp..a really great thread. I hope it gets read and understood and used by a whole lot of folks.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: nowaydo
Date: 25-May-00 | 05:22 PM

Thanks Mr. Tripp,

It's hard to fine an experienced martial artist to give me professional development with my class.
The average martial artist still things "self-defense" for women is like a NHB fight she can't win or a karate spsrring tournament she can win. I know different. I've put in a lot of time and research on the subject.
I know it isn't about winning, but surviving!

The most difficult challenge I have is my Self-defense for women vs weapons. "I didn't come up with the class, I was just told to teach it" I don't think there is a "sure-fire" way, for men or women, yet I have to teach something. I don't teach the fancy joint locks, but to distract, trap, strike and run! Anymore advise?

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 26-May-00 | 07:53 AM

Well, the simple point is to look how people like Applegate and Fairbairn felt about the subject. Fairbairn trained more than a few women too.

Unarmed Combat is what you do when your weapon fails or you are so foolish as not to have one.
Unarmed Combat against weapons is darn near impossible; and in most cases is impossible, even for young tough males.

Like it or not the subject of "shall issue" laws is going to come up here. I am of the opinion that it is up to the State to PROVE why someone should NOT be allowed to carry a gun; rather than the current system of the other way around.

In the most serious of cases the handgun has proven itself time and time again as the ONE sure fire way to end the problem, and in almost ALL cases mearly showing the weapon causes the attacker to take flight.
Before we get there, as I know we are going to tred on some silly notions and PC viewpoints (like the million moron march); I suggest getting two books. "More Guns Less Crime" and "The Great Americian Gun Debate".

Let me say here that the best way to handle people bigger, stronger, and in many cases armed; is with a PPD of our own. Where it is legal to carry; the handgun is the ultimate PPD.
I will get into some "last ditch" defenses in the next chapter.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: nowaydo
Date: 26-May-00 | 12:22 PM

Thanks Mr. Tripp,

There is a great story about a town in Florida that held a free gun course for women. It was highly advertised. Result: Violent crimes against women dropped in half. One study shows the success rate of a rape against an arm women was 1%.

But....As we know, the average woman is not going to be armed and if she is...will she be in a position to use it.

So! What would you suggest for me to teach a woman who chooses not to submit to a weapon. Studies show that less than ten percent of people who are shot or stabbed die...also, of those who die, have been shot or stabbed muliple times. Could fighting back be the difference?

What would you teach?

Subject: RE: INFO
From: Fan
Date: 26-May-00 | 12:42 PM
Im glad that this thread has continued fairly well. Part of the problem with this type of format is the limited time involved to get across a great deal of valuable information. Weve all pretty much agreed that this has to be as simple as absolutely possible. I would like to teach a women's self defense course, but putting it together well and giving women good stuff forces you, as an instructor to make a lot of hard decisions.
I would LOVE to have the type of format that my University had-- They had a women's self defense course as a phy ed. 12 weeks 2 hours a week, and a FINAL TEST that counted on your GPA. There is no other format that I think gives you the amount of time to do what you need.. without having to cut things out.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: Fan
Date: 26-May-00 | 12:51 PM
With the time comment having been said, Im toying with the idea of departing from the mainstream and including a little classroom/ group discussion time about sexual assault and womens attitudes towards violence inflicted on them/ attitude towards fighting back.

Ive had the chance to study sex offenders from a number of venues. In college for Criminal Justice we studied sex offenders from a variety of different aspects(investigation, prosecution,counseling), and I have had the opportunity to attend a small group presentation by the regional FBI profiler, and other training opportunities in that area. Ive also worked in corrections for two states, and have dealt with at least a thousand rapists/sex offenders.

What Im trying to get at is that there is a lot of good info on sex offenders that is beyond academic and has practical Tactical value to women on the streets. Women also have a great number of stereotypes regarding rape/assault that simply are not true in the real world.

I know that teaching quick, immediate functional skills is paramount, but would you guys integrate some of the above? How much?

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 26-May-00 | 06:16 PM

Very simple;

1. Follow the 4 rules.
2. Follow Coopers Principles of Personal Defense.
3. Train your ass off with something that will end a fight quickly.
4. If threatened run. No matter if they are armed or not; run.

If they won't do that; then may God have mercy on their soul...

Subject: RE: INFO
From: nowaydo
Date: 26-May-00 | 10:31 PM

Thank You again Mr. Tripp!

That was funny...but real!!!

Subject: RE: INFO
From: theincrediblebulk
Date: 27-May-00 | 10:58 PM

"The only issue I have here is the sex talk. I'm all for playing possum - I think its the correct strategy, but your attacker is either going to get more enraged because your trying to play him for a fool - or he is not going to just rape you once."

**** delurking ****

The woman doesn't necessarily have to come off like a porno starlet for this strategy to work. Just feigning passivity until the moment is right to strike (or bite) could work too.

Too many people have the attitude that "If you know you are going to be raped, you might as well enjoy it." If a woman pretends that she has this resigned attitude until the time is ripe, it could be very effective, without necessarily giving the rapist the impression that she is playing him.
The fat man has spoken.

**** relurking ****

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 28-May-00 | 06:12 AM

The reason for the major "porn star" is very simple. It will NEVER have been the reaction this guy got. It is going to be a MAJOR shock to him and his "plan". In short, he is going to lose ALL attacking advantage at the monent as it brings it to a dead stop.


This is the ONLY way to expect an unarmed defense to have a chance of success; it MUST be a suprize. It must also be brutal, ruthless, and effective. But more on that later.

There may be another way to do that. I just don't know of any that work as well.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: Fan
Date: 28-May-00 | 01:52 PM
"The "sex talk" moves a person from the concept of beating or choking you into compliance to the "oh, this is going to be easy" mind set."

This is why I posted my thoughts about including more of the behavioral aspects of sexual assault. There are some types of rapists who are VERY inadequate personalities. They suprise a victim and attack because there is no way they could talk a victim into going away with them, or pick up a woman at a bar for sex. They have spent hours and hours masturbating over this incident with the thought that the woman will eventually be "won over" and realize that this guy is "pretty good".

On the flip side there is a different set of behaviors that are exhibited by some attackers. I have a case study in a text where the woman tried the "sex talk" and got beaten worse for it. "This is for my pleasure, not hers, Fuckkin whore......."

"This is the ONLY way to expect an unarmed defense to have a chance of success; it MUST be a suprize."
This is totally correct, Mr. Tripp. And I suppose it still applies to the sex talk scenario. If it changes the dynamic of the situation, in the first case, it would "relax" the offender, and be a platform for defense. In the second, I believe that there would be the momentary "What the.......", to counterattack from, but that would not be a long period of time. The second situation is statistically less likely to happen. But I think it serves my point, that we need to find a way to study/teach the dynamics of sexual assault.

Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 28-May-00 | 04:27 PM

Well, the space in time between "I'll do what you want just don't hurt me." and ripping his balls off is quite short indeed.

This of course implies this is not a "slam rape" where she is being assaulted with no chance to talk at all.
In that situation she would just defend herself as best she could. But this is not common and near impossible if a person is alert to the "tells" of such an attack.

In reality 95% of proper rape escape training is on avoidence; awareness, mind set; and evasion. The other 5% is about stopping that man as quickly as you can.

Learning what to teach in that 5% is the true issue here.

For other Mark Tripp entries, please check out:

NOTE: Posted as-of Jun 21, 2000 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives -



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