Friday, April 28, 2000

Mark Tripp - Combatives 3 (Level of Force)

Combatives 3

You are in the Judo Q&A Forum:
Subject: Combatives 3
From: MTripp
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 07:01 AM

We not get to a very important point in understanding combatives. In another post someone brought up the level of force issue. I want to deal with that here...

There are three types of combative training;

  • Police/Security/Correction Officer
  • Military
  • Civilian
The first two are specialised subjects we will get to. But right now I want to deal with the last one.

Level of force is something that trained officers mess up all the time. It also operates under the idea that you have force options (hand, stick, spray, gun, etc) to draw from. This is not always the case with civilians. Also it assumes you have back up there or on the way; this is almost NEVER the case with civilians.

Clearly the ONLY way to train civilians is to avoid and evade problems at all costs. BUT, if that fails then they are going to fight with brutal kill or be killed combative techniques.

It is NOT your job to get your drunken Uncle George out of the party. "Come along holds" are nothing more than standing submission holds and people who resist WILL get broken bones. This is why LAPD banned body holds years ago (and one of the many factors that led to the Rodney King problem).

It IS your job to avoid and evade problems. To that end we have created the 4 rules. These are not the four suggestions or the four it would be nice if you did this.

If you are going to carry PPD's and train in real combatives; then you WILL follow the four rules or sooner or later you WILL go to jail or be sued. The choice is yours.

The four rules:

  1. I will not drink to excess and I will avoid ALL persons and places where people will be drinking to excess.
    Note: Watch cops sometime and notice how many people are drunk out of their mind and in trouble.
  2. I will not use illegal drugs and I will avoid ALL persons and places where people are using them or they are to be found.
    Note: We just had a murder up here because one druggie told a druggie buddy that his grandparents had money and no guns in the house. Druggie #2 went there and beat everyone to death with a hammer.
  3. I will avoid ALL ilicit sexual contact of ANY nature.
    Note: I am not just talking about strip clubs (that is covered in #1). I mean leave other peoples wives, husbands, girlfriends, ALONE. Stay away from hookers (both 1 and 2 are always around hookers).
  4. Stay out of the danger zone
Note: This means buckle your seat belt; eat right; don't speed; mind your own business; etc. In other words, do what is SAFE not what is DANGEROUS.

Now; READ THEM AGAIN! Now, one more time.

OK, ask yourself this. How much stuff on Cops would be avoided if people followed the 4 rules?

More importantly; following the 4 rules means you do NOT have to worry about level of force! That is the freedom it gives you!

Think about it; if someone lays hands on me; and I follow the four rules; what could it be other than a violent personal assault? It won't be a drunk in a bar (rule 1) or a jealous husband (rule 3). You can react with violent force as quickly as you can because you do not have to think about the situation.

"The wise man is sorry before rather than after. The man who is sorry before builds his life. The man who is sorry after spends all his time repairing it."

Next; selection of combative techniques.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 08:54 AM
excelent
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 10:04 AM
Great!!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 10:45 AM
I think that's a very sensible list, even if you're not interested in martial arts. Nevetheless, going out with my friends and having alot to drink is one of the best ways we student-types can have fun, meet girls etc. Although I rarely get very drunk, my friends often do. When trouble breaks out, I try to make sure I can restrain my friends or their aggressors without anyone getting hurt. I think this sort of thing is still a useful skill to have. (Ususally, I pin the person in question with a scarf hold).
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sundevil
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 11:35 AM
I don't really want to cause trouble on your Q&A, but it is interesting to see your opinion that submission holds can break bones. I read in a law enforcement magazine where a San Diego Police Officer put a pain/compliance hold on a protestor and broke his arm in two places. Obviously, he was sued. Great post, by the way. You can be accused of blaming the victim for pointing out such obvious truths, but the fact is, even in the U.S., with its high crime rate, you are not very likely to be the victim of a violent crime if you follow those simple rules.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: VinceB
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 01:26 PM
Handy advice. The trunkated version I got from Jimmy Woo. "You don't want to fight? Don't go to bars." And he's been right. Never had any altercations till I started working the door in college for extra cash. Broke rule #1 and yep, there's fighting. It's much easier to have keg in the house.... regards, VinceB
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Yeah
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 01:37 PM
Great Point Mr. Tripp, but what about Family reunions :)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: beau
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 02:37 PM
just great, no alchohol, drugs or hookers, 3 of my favorite things in life :) (j/k)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: croft
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 03:04 PM
Again, this series should be archieved so that it can be viewed in it's entirety even after it has slipped off the page. =^..^=
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 05:04 PM
Well... I have told the story before that I was asked to remove an "unruley" person from my late brothers wedding... I am still thought of as a jerk over that one. I don't go ANYWHERE in violation of the four rules. Period. Others may do as they wish.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 05:07 PM
Beautiful stated Mark.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 05:08 PM
or how about beautifulLY stated. (sheesh, all those yrs at the uni wasted)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 05:56 PM
LOL! I don't know the story about you at the wedding. Please tell.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 07:34 PM
Oh man.... One of the women in the bridal party had a VERY jealous boyfriend. As you know the bridal party sits up front with the "pairs" of people. The boyfriend was VERY upset that HIS girl wasn't sitting with him and was making problems at the back of the room. I was asked to solve the problem. BIG ERROR!!!! In hindsight I should have said "Tell her to tell him to sit down or leave"; but of course I did not. Like a jerk I think this guy just doesn't know anyone and I invite him to sit with my guys... I get called everything but a nice white boy... I tell him to leave... He tells me what to do to myself (which if I could would solve a lot of problems). I tell him again to leave... He repeats the suggestion about an inch from my face. Soooooooo...... I remove him from the church. In the process he gets a broken arm; several serious bruses, and we break a glass door I shove his face through... The first one didn't break. Gene LeBell loves this story. It was 15 years ago and I am STILL a jerk in everyones eyes because of it.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 10:26 PM
Cause you are a jerk =P
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 10:27 PM
But we love you anyway!! =)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 04:39 AM
That makes you a hero in my opinion. It has long been an ambition of mine to shove someone's head through a plate glass window. To do it in a church, at a wedding makes it all the more special. ( : Great story anyway.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 08:18 AM
Oh yes; THEY thought I was a hero all right....
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Tony Bananas
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 11:44 AM
can you imagine the grandfolks sitting there watching this burly man toss a youngin' around at their precious lil' granddaughter's wedding? i would love to see some video footage of you smashing his noggin into, not one, but TWO glass doors! lmao! t
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 11:54 AM
No no; the first door didn't break; but the second door did. Actually this guy was about 23 and a "tough guy". He just picked a fight WAY out of his league. BUT; when all is said and done; I'M the one people think is the A-hole.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 01:14 PM
Because of this incident, or just generally? ; )
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 01:43 PM
In general; but the above is used as an example often.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 03:15 PM
LOL!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JIMMO
Date: 27-Apr-00 | 10:59 PM
Excellent Post! Jim Olsen
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 28-Apr-00 | 04:24 AM
thanks, great set of posts


For other Mark Tripp entries, please check out:






NOTE: Posted as-of Apr 28, 2000 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives - http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/mtcombat3.html.



Mark Tripp - Combatives 2 (Who was W.E. Fairbairn?)

Subject: Combatives 2
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 07:31 PM

Who was W.E. Fairbairn?

The Journal of Asian Martial Arts did an in depth story on Fairbairn a few years ago. I also spoke of him in one of the history lessons. This should give you more depth.

Simply put Fairbairn was someone who was deeply fascinated by close quarter combat, and the realities of same. He spent his time learning and mastering anything that had to do with this subject. He went to the Kodokan and received a Second Degree Black Belt from Kano him self.

But it wasn’t just unarmed combat that Fairbairn studied. Guns, Knives, Clubs, improvised weapons; and ways to use them came under his study. He created a “bullet shield” and would hold it while being shot to test (and in this case refute) common beliefs about the power of handgun rounds. He also did tests by shooting live animals as well as cadavers.

Needless to say; these “experiments” did not sit well with the “image” of the proper English gentlemen. It was decided that it would be best if they sent Fairbairn away somewhere; FAR away somewhere.

Fairbairn was assigned to head the Shanghai Municipal Police in 1927. The city was in total anarchy. Marauding gangs of renegades terrorized the city. A seaport city, Shanghai had more than its share of back-alley street toughs. Europeans and Asians battled each other and among themselves in almost daily brawls that took the form of small riots.

In order to quell the dangerous mobs, Fairbairn trained his people in the methods he created. He and his small squad of men restored law and order to Shanghai, but not until they had proven his CQC methods in countless street wars. Fairbairn was involved in over 200 certified encounters, almost all against armed thugs. Peace was restored to Shanghai, but elsewhere in the world, worse conflict was erupting.

The British had just been dealt the horrible blow known as Dunkirk. They were sure a German invasion of their country was on the way; and they knew all too well they were not prepared for such an event. Fortunately; they knew someone who was. They sent for Fairbairn.

On the trip back to England; Fairbairn wrote the book “Get Tough” (which you can still get to this day); and penned the outline of training for the newly created “Home Guard”. This training course would set the standard for what would be called “Commando” fighting. Even still; there were “proper gentlemen” who refused to accept Fairbairns concepts of, as they called them, “gutter fighting”. (There is a great letter from one such officer that cracks me up to this day as he speaks of the traditions of proper fighting and all that).

In 1940, the British government called upon Fairbairn to teach his method of CQC to the Allied soldiers. His system was termed “commando techniques”. The British, Canadian, and American elite forces all came under the influence of Fairbairn. This special training program was in Canada; and there is a film (directed by the great John Ford) of this training. You can sometime’s catch part of this film on the History Channel.

One of the students here was an American, Lt. Col. Rex Applegate. He would further modify and add to this system. The resulting system was taught to the operatives of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The men and women of the OSS learned their skills to be used behind enemy lines. The Fairbairn-Applegate techniques of the “quick-kill” were taught to these agents who would infiltrate, spy upon and sabotage the Nazi forces. The OSS was later to become the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

(more)


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 07:31 PM

The techniques developed by Fairbairn were meant for survival; there was no sport aspect. Indeed, the methods are brutal and ruthless. He devised techniques that would allow the physically weaker and smaller agents, including women, to defeat larger, stronger enemies. This meant that the concept of “self-defense” had to give way to the idea of “self-offense”. “Fair Play” was OUT; and the agents had a variety of hidden weapons to assist them in killing a man quickly and silently. Knowing the environment and scenarios in which the agents would likely find themselves, Fairbairn devised techniques that would succeed in confined areas, such as railroad car compartments, automobiles, and theater boxes. The techniques had to be devastatingly effective. At the very least, failure meant capture, torture and execution. But, even more significantly, failure also meant the fate of the free nations of the world would be jeopardized. Fairbairn, whose own country was under the nightly blitzkrieg attack, knew all too well the price of failure. His methods had to work. It was that simple. And they had to be mastered in weeks, not years. Time was also the enemy of the Allied forces. His methods had an aggressive, brutal effectiveness that reflect the dire necessity that birthed them.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 05:59 PM

ttt

thanks

the JMAC article is about to be read :)


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 06:20 PM

just to make sure (it is in front of me, but I am wondering if there is another issue), the JMAC article is in volume 6, number 2, 1997: William E. Fairbairn: British Pioneer in Asian Martial Arts by Allen Pittman

thanks


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 07:27 PM

yep


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bad Brad
Date: 23-Apr-00 | 12:10 AM

ttt


Subject: RE: INFO
From: XJD
Date: 23-Apr-00 | 01:34 AM

Mr. Tripp,

Thanks for another great post. Do you have an opinion on Bradley Steiner and his American Combato? From what I understand, he studied under Fairbairn and Applegate.

Thanks,

XJD


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 23-Apr-00 | 08:20 AM

I highly doubt he trained under Fairbairn (too young); and I am not sure Applegate either. In his books he claims linage to them; and there is good advice in there.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: XJD
Date: 23-Apr-00 | 08:49 PM

Thanks. I might be mistaken about Fairbairn, but I knew he said he trained with one of them. I live in the Seattle area, so I might try to look him up.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Yeah
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 12:36 PM

I believe he trained with one of Fairbairns original students from England. I have also heard that fairbairns stuff had some very good Judo moves, dont know this for sure.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 12:59 PM

well he was a 2nd dan...(as was Ochepkov interestingly enough)


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 01:37 PM

Yep; traditional Kodokan Judo was a very important influence on both men.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 02:06 PM

Are you going to describe some of these techniques and training methods? - If so, I can't wait!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: tmorenz
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 02:39 PM

excellent ttt


Subject: RE: INFO
From: beau
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 04:05 PM

great stuff TTT


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 05:45 PM

Of course...that is the point of it being in the judo folder!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:57 PM

ttt


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 25-Apr-00 | 08:04 AM

Jolly good!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 25-Apr-00 | 07:37 PM


Subject: RE: INFO
From: lkfmdc
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 12:28 AM

Kano revolutionizes the martial arts with randori. His students include one of the key influences on sambo, one of the key figures in developing a western CQC system, and the key figure in the development of BJJ. By extension, his influence on sambo leads to an influence on San Shou. Pretty extraordinary for a singel man...


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 26-Apr-00 | 04:26 AM

He wasn't married? : )




For other Mark Tripp entries, please check out:






NOTE: Posted as-of Apr 28, 2000 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives - http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/mtcombat2.html.

Mark Tripp - Combatives 1

Combatives 1

You are in the Judo Q&A Forum: Subject: Combatives 1
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:38 AM

For the last 41 years of my life, I have been studying various martial art forms. You name the style, and odds are I've spent at least six months getting the feel of it. Now I know many martial arts instructors would have you believe that six months is not enough time to learn the basics, let alone understand the "mysteries" of a given system. To them I say, horse hockey!

The human body will only move in a given number of ways. The laws of physics are the same whether I'm in China, Korea, Japan, the United States! Every human has the same number of limbs, organs, and nerve centers (unless they have been injured). Once you have removed the cultural factors from the various systems (more on that later), you will find the basic movements are almost the same. It is important to understand this because of the radical nature of my next statement. After 41 years of study, I have come to the conclusion that THE MARTIAL ARTS DON'T WORK!

Now before we get a large pole and gather up dry kindling for me, let's agree on a definition. The vast majority of people who come into a "martial arts" school or program, come only for one reason: "protection". Either for themselves or their loved ones, but protection is the goal. Not medals, not diet and exercise, not philosophy, but the skills necessary to defend themselves from dangerous attack. I say again, if the goal is protection of yourself or a loved one, then THE MARTIAL ARTS DON'T WORK!

First, the Martial Arts were NEVER used in war! Can you tell me the battle where the karate army charged the hill defended by the Aikido army, and the results of same? Of course not.

Second, ALL of the stories you hear about "Martial Art" masters are simply untrue. Let me give the best example I can think of. EVERY master of Okinawan karate, and many other karate styles as well, tells us the tale of Okinawan peasants developing karate, because they had no weapons. "Legends" abound of great masters who could punch through Samurai armor! Well, if the unarmed karate skills of these people worked so well for them, WHY DIDN'T THEY OVERTHROW THE JAPANESE WHO WERE OPPRESSING THEIR PEOPLE? "Tall tales" are fun to read. However, we don't believe Davy Crockett killed a bear when he was three (to give one example), so we shouldn't believe these myths either. The entire concept of "One Blow-One Kill" comes from training with the sword. I agree a well made sword, in the hands of a trained Samurai, will kill with one stroke. But when Japan outlawed possession of swords, the Samurai bought into the "tall tales" of Okinawa, due to the incredible breaking skills the Okinawan Karate masters had. Unfortunately, boards and bricks don't hit back and a hand is not a sword, no matter how much we wish it were.

"Martial Artists" by their very nature, want you to buy into "tall tales" and "mystic mindsets". When the average American tries these things, it's not going to work for them. The recent Ultimate Fighting Championships have given "Martial Artists" fits because of the results. So lets get this point made and move on; THE IDEA OF STANDING "TOE TO TOE" AND "FIGHTING IT OUT" WITH AN ASSAILANT IS FOOLISH, STUPID AND WILL GET YOU KILLED! (more)


Subject: RE: Combatives 1
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:40 AM

Current attempts to correct the problems aren't much better. Programs where women get together with other women, to beat the hell out of a man in a padded rubber suit WILL teach the aggressiveness necessary to survive a violent encounter. HOWEVER, they will still suffer from the "martial art" concept that you can "slug it out" with someone. Or your attackers will stand there and let you beat them until they are disabled!

I remember attending a seminar taught by a famous martial artist. Her entire concept was to just keep hitting someone until they fell down. When I asked, "What do you do think your opponent is doing while you're hitting him?", I was told, he'll be too busy ducking and avoiding to attack you. Nonsense! As long as I can THINK about hitting you, I WILL hit you! Now we're "slugging it out" again.

If a program tells you that with enough "boot camp" exercise, "aerobic boxing", bag work, or "makiwara" training, you will have the skills necessary to "slug it out" with someone, imagine the following:

"Ladies and Gentleman, this is the main event. In this corner, weighing 140 pounds, with one year of karate training, able to break 3 boards with a single blow, and able to do over an hour of calisthenics, the challenger!...and in this corner, weighing 240 lbs, just back from a 3 year tour of the state prison farm, with a record of 6 violent assaults, 3 rapes, 2 armed robberies, and an as of yet unproved murder...the champion!"

Who are you betting on to win the fight? There has to be a better plan, and there is! Simply put, we must never have a "toe to toe" conflict with anyone.

Martial arts training concentrates on one small aspect of self defense, that is physical technique, or "how to do it". But even here so much of the martial arts technique has no application at all to real fighting and it simply confuses the student by making actual fighting seem complex and technical, hence he or she falls prey to to the ideology that "technique" or style is the answer. In doing so they are prevented from framing the right "question" and seeing the real problem.

But self defense is simply about surviving , not technique, and self defense study must include an understanding of the criminal assailants mind and modus operandi because by knowing his ways, most attacks can be avoided. Most important of all self defense training must show the student that he is placed in an "alternate mind set and consciousness" (Flight or Fight) when faced with direct stand up aggression. In short most people "choke" or "freeze" when confronted with their first real attack, hence even if they are accomplished martial arts people they can many times have no access to these skills in the adrenal state and are beaten decisively, easily and very quickly by the street thug. (cont)


Subject: RE: Combatives
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:41 AM

These are two halves of the same whole, knowing your enemies ways and knowing yourself. Until the student experiences choking, "freezing up" under the threat or actual attack, he does not realize it can happen to him (he thus does not "know himself"). But once he experiences this he also realizes why the aggressor counts on the "freeze up" reaction since he also has been educated to the criminal assailant's victim selection modus operandi (Interview).

The real assailant for the most part is searching for a victim, not a fight and frankly martial arts training as we see it today in so many "dojos' is little more than "victim preparation" because it gives the student such a very distorted picture of what a real fight is all about and what his enemy is all about and his ways of doing business. Everyone needs to have this knowledge and some self defense ability in proportion to their potential for actualizing same. I believe this because after all, if their were no "easy victims" there would be far fewer criminal assailants.

Put it this way, go to any Zoo. We are not as strong as the elephant, as fast as the tiger, or as poisonous as the snake. Yet who is behind the bars? It is because of our MIND, and our TOOLS, that we can defeat the beasts of the world, and that includes the two legged types!

Early in 1993, a popular mld-afternoon talk show featured several people who had been assaulted on the streets. Their stories were all too familiar. One of them exclaimed that even though she had been involved in preparing women for such an assault, she was still powerless to prevent it! The show featured a criminologist and a security expert. They debated the merits of funding Head Start and putting in more security cameras in shopping malls respectively.

In the latter half of the program a self defense instructor was introduced. He proceeded to demonstrate various physical techniques that can be used by children to ward off the attack of a full grown man. The demonstrations worked well of course. After all, the children knew exactly when and how the assailant would strike; something you don't normally find in the real world. Not once in the entire program was the use of modern personal protection devices, such as defense sprays even mentioned. And that's a pity, because anyone who purchases and learns how to use these devices stands a much better chance of stopping an assault and escaping to summon help.

Despite a natural, trusting tendency to go about our daily lives in ignorant bliss, more and more people, especially women, are beginning to realize they must protect themselves. There is a growing realization that we all must assume the responsibly for our own safety. Let's look at some options.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:54 AM

In reality; there are only two types of "martial arts" that were created for war. The medhods handed down by Fairbairn to people like Applegate, Styers, etc. AND what the Russians did with Sambo. I leave it to Scott to relate that story to you; here we will focus on the one man who did indeed create the most effective system EVER for dealing with a life and death struggle; and of course his methods; W. E. Fairbairn.

"Dangerous Dan" had several axioms that students had to learn. To begin we learn the two most important ones.

"It is not "self-defense", nor should it be. It is "self-offense" in that the moment you see the danger you will respond with violent deadly force until that danger has passed."

and

"Unarmed combat is what we enter into when we have been foolish enough not to have a weapon; careless enough to lose our weapon, or unlucky enough to have broken our weapon. But in any case our first choice will be to use deadly weapons to finsh off our opponent. Lacking those weapons; then our hands and feet will have to do."

Clearly our goal is to avoid conflict whenever possible. If we cannot avoid our goal becomes to make ourselves a "tough target" and evade the situation. But if avoid and evade fail; then we will make every effort to destroy our attacker by doing as much dammage to him as quickly as we can then leaving the area as quickly as we can.

This is the only goal to combatives. We will begin to learn how to achieve that goal now...

"Kick him in the balls" W.E. Fairbairn


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 07:56 AM

A great start to what I'm sure will be a great series.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 07:58 AM

Mark, a hearty hurrah! I couldn't agree more. This is precisely what I expound is promoting personal SYSTEM over "style."

I'll attempt to keep this short, but upon your request it is important to recount that the Russian training methodology does NOT focus upon "technique." (and in this definition of "technique" I am NOT referring to "proper mechanics." I am referring to "specific, rote, predetermined, pre-orchestrated reaction to a specific threat.")

In Russia, our training evolved from the need to develop the mature fighting attributes necessary for "Survival under extreme conditions" (as I have said ad nauseum). I know, I know... everyone wants to learn a fancy technique, and many people are frustrated by the apparent "elusiveness" of my answers, but that is because... dependency upon technique, is fixation on failure - which in the case of personal and family safety equates to death.

Sambo has been on the downward spin since the fall of the Soviet Union. "And why is that," you may ask. Because of the mass awareness and interest in Sambo is DEFINING Sambo as a collection of techniques. The masses of novice and mediocre awareness of ACTUAL Russian training have defined Sambo - people who have never been to Russia and just "assumed" that Sambo must be like all other "styles" - people that read a book or watched a "wrestling match" and talked to an immigrant and assumed they "knew" what Sambo was in Russia (often using the excuse that they are accomplished in other "styles." LOL)

In recent years, in Russia, the true practitioners have made strong strides to rejuvenate the PROPER understanding of Russian training methodologies, which deal PRIMARILY with the elimination of "fear-reactivity" and the solicitation of "fear-reactivity" in the enemy. This is why the "Russian-Style Hand to Hand Combat and Survival Under Extreme Conditions" (called R.O.S.S. Training System) was created. This is what I mean when I say PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGICAL TRAINING. This is what I mean why I say PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT. This is what I mean when I say ATTRIBUTE DEVELOPMENT. This crisis survival is the crux and cornerstone of the Russian training.

Because the mass pollution of the "notion" of Sambo. Everyone's a Sambo master nowadays... (or even better, everyone is a "Sambo blackbelt with a library of Sambo videos." What an apostasy to the original intention!

The innovation of Sambo was NOT technical content. The innovation was what was echoed in all of the turn of the century to WWII military combatives.

In Russia I train with and train Special Forces (Spetsnaz). They are not huge fang-weilding dreadnoughts of destruction. The average Op is only 5'5" 140lbs. soaking wet. (The videos that everyone love to watch of the "Spetsnaz Super Soldiers" drop kicking each other with burly muscles in Russia are called "Hollywood Troops" DESIGNED to be "accidentally" caught on film.) Our training has everything to do with the instillation of fear-reactivity in the opponent and the removal of fear-reactivity in ourselves.

The uniqueness of the Russian training methodology is its approach... "Sambo Special flavor" aka "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" aka "Russian-Style (Hand to hand Combat)" now known as R.O.S.S. Training System is the development of combat "Survival under extreme situations."

Leave it to Mark to say in one post succinctly, what I have been saying in the SAMBO Q&A for months with bag-o-windedness.

Good show, my friend.

Fraternal,

Scott Sonnon

AmerROSS.com


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Fan
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 08:13 AM

This falls in nicely with alot of what I believe. Ive been a prison guard in 2 states, and agree with quite a bit of stuff here. But I would like to add a couple things. Mainstream self defense is totally ignorant of this, and even hardcore schools do not spend a great deal of time with "force continuum" issues. The FC is the only good item that comes out of DT programs. The do or die mugger/murderer scenario is real, but low percentage compared to the chance of having to restrain a drunken friend from getting behind the wheel. This is a whole different situation legally, ethically, and morally.

I greatly approve of Mr. Tripp's taking up this issue. Ive noticed high level grapplers/fighters at times speak with an air of invincibility when talking about street situations. As a CO, the main reason I grapple is to feel the resistance of a live person, and because Ive never met anybody who could use standing joint locks who wasnt a WIZARD at ground locks. There are certain things about control that you learn grappling that you dont get anywhere else -- even though they serve as more of a drill than as application. Sorry if this was too long.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 09:29 AM

Out of interest, SSonnon, could the sport side of Sombo be considered as a collection of techniques? That's usually the way sport Judo is seen.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: beau
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 10:01 AM

Excellent posts, I was missing MTripp's history stuff, so this hit the spot.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Tap This
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 10:34 AM

Excellent!

Jason


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 10:42 AM

Got to love this forum!!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: beau
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 11:09 AM

You always see people on the forum talking about "what works" in a fight, and then going on about NHB etc. I think training in a combat sport is one of the best things you can do, not necessarily because of the applied techniques you learn, but because it gets you used to physical contact. I honestly think that people who consider themselves bad asses simply because they train for NHB or in BJJ etc are in for a rude awakening if they ever get in a serious street confrontation where people are seriously intent on hurting them. (not that I'm a street combatives expert, just that I try to be honest with myself about how much (or how little, I guess) what training I do will help me if someone tries to stab me on the subway, or a group jumps me in the street. MTripp, I think you've made an important post which everyone on the forum should read.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 12:34 PM

AS,

If you are speaking of American SOMBO, then you'll have to contact their organization, for when I resigned as president of their organization and left for Russia, I have had no further contact with them.

If you are speaking of Russian Sambo... any who view Sambo as a collection of "techniques" do not understand Sambo, regardless of whether it is Sport-flavor, Combat-flavor, or Special-flavor. Sambo was intended to be a whole system.

Fraternal,

Scott Sonnon

AmerROSS.com

SAMBO.net


Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 12:42 PM

AS, furthermore, and I'll allow Mark to expound upon Judo's actual pedagogical intent, since that is not my expertise, one of the innovations that was imported from J. Kano (via Sambo contributor V. Oshchepkov) was the emphasis on open exploration (randori & shiai, I believe are the terms in Japanese, though my spelling or word choice may be wrong). Although a myriad of grappling styles were prevalent throughout Russia, it was Oshchepkov's experience with Judo, and Kano's training methodologies that inspired Oshchepkov to emphasize this aspect as CRITICAL to cultivating and maintaining the mature fighting prowess in men and women. It was the EXPLORATION, not 'information' that was critical... a safe, enduring environment to explore attribute development. This was the contribution of Sambo sport-flavor. Combat-flavor and Special-flavor has EQUAL, INTEGRAL importance.

Fraternal,

Scott Sonnon

AmerROSS.com

SAMBO.net


Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 01:17 PM

beau

"I think training in a combat sport is one of the best things you can do, not necessarily because of the applied techniques you learn, but because it gets you used to physical contact."

Beautifully stated... and that is the purpose of sport-flavor training. It is when this is inflated beyond the realm of the mat, that people place themselves in harm's way.

Training must be a TOTAL System, not merely a fragment.

Fraternal,

Scott Sonnon

AmerROSS.com


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 01:22 PM

This is quite true. It is not about "technique" but rather "fitting" your body to the situation.

Bruce Lee said it kinda like this...

"What stance does Jorden take when he shoots the air ball?" (I have updated the person)

"In reality none; as his body knows exactly what the conditions are to make that shot; once that is percieved then the shot is made."

Jeff Cooper in several of his shooting books makes the same points about the real "one shot one kill".

ONLY when we get concerned about ranks, tests, belts, etc does "material" become important.

I can show you the mechanics of magic tricks all night long; heck there have even been TV shows about it; BUT ASK YOURSELF THIS!!!!

Even with the knowledge of the working, COULD YOU DO IT???

In that question, and your pondering on it, is the greatest personal truth to your training you will ever find!!!!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 01:32 PM

Amen!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Tony Bananas
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 02:14 PM

awesome!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: poobear
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 02:58 PM

This is exactly what I've been learning for the last 6 months or so...

Kudos!


Subject: RE: INFO
From: croft
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 05:30 PM

Someone should save this thread.

=^..^=


Subject: RE: INFO
From: cudgel
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 10:43 AM

ttt


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 05:45 PM

ttt

thanks Coach, I'm going to love this series


Subject: RE: INFO
From: RUSHVAN
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 05:57 PM

I agree with MTripp, I have maintained that the surest way to learn to fight is to fight. And in a controlled setting the closest by far is boxing, then wrestling and then judo. There has never been an instance when I have started traing someone in boxing who has never sparred before (particularly martial artists) that the first time they get hit, even a stiff jab they simply do no know what to do. When hit with a combination they almost invariably bend over, cover up and turn their back. Not good.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bad Brad
Date: 23-Apr-00 | 12:08 AM

ttt


Subject: RE: INFO
From: budokuden
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 08:47 AM

Well done! Logical analysis and good points about MA theory and the reality of the street.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Yeah
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 12:30 PM

Any one want to buy a used Black belt?? Got two for a great price.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 01:38 PM

Nothing wrong with those black belts; but you need to focus on what Kano was trying to tell us.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 02:00 PM

Thanks for the answers, SSonnon.

MTripp, will you be discussing restraining techniques at any stage? Many times, I am trying to restrain a drunken friend, not fight for my life. It is here that I find Judo really comes into its own.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: tmorenz
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 02:40 PM

ttt


Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 05:46 PM

Yes; but to my way of thinking Small Circle Jujitsu is the very best at that kind of situation.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:39 PM

Excellent post Mark. I've always thought that the great psychiatrists and psychologists of the age have never delved into the psyche of human defense. Mans instincted is to survive. His inate ability to defend himself against other men and animals. I've always thought that you can teach poeple martial arts and techniques to defend themselves but you can't teach them to "fight".


Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:45 PM

I think self defense starts first and foremost with alertness and avoidense. Knowing whats going on around you and taking evasive actions before things turn bad is the best defense. If you've ever been in a situation were everthing you say and do from second to second dictates the mood and volitility of your environment, were saying the wrong thing, or even having the wrong tone in your voice could cost you your life, you know what I mean. I wish I could elaborate further, but time does not permit it at this time. Your on the right track, brother.


Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 25-Apr-00 | 07:37 PM




For other Mark Tripp entries, please check out:






NOTE: Posted as-of Dec 28, 2001 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives - http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/mtcombat1.html. Pageviews at the time of porting from old site to here was 12,911.

Friday, April 14, 2000

Scrapper - Card Workout Explained!

CARD WORKOUT EXPLAINED!

Subject: SIMPLE, PAINFUL, EFFECTIVE
From: SCRAPPER
Date: 11-Mar-00 | 01:23 PM

ok, there was another thread that mentioned the "card pt" that i do in my classes. its super simple to do and works the shit out of you. here we go:

take an ordinary deck of cards. all face cards are a leg exercise. all non-face cards are some type of pushups. here are some guidelines:

any card less than a 5, is automatically a 5.

all leg exercises are done in a 4 count manner. if you were doing wide leg squats, you would count 1 as you went down, 2 as you came up, 3 as you went back down, and ONE when you came back up. thats one rep.

the face cards are counted like this: JACKS are 10 reps, QUEENS are 15 reps, KINGS are 20 reps, ACES are 25 reps.

if you are going to throw GRAPPLING UNLIMITED PUSHUPS in the mix, it must be a set of 100.

the fastest i have ever done this workout is 24 minutes, but it can take a full hour at times.

here is a list of some different exercises that you can use: regular pushups, close grip pushups, wide grip pushups, dive bomber (hindu) pushups, wide leg squats, half squats, shootfighter (hindu) squats, bootstrappers (SAVE THESE FOR THE ACES! HEHEHE), lunges

those are only a few of the exercises you can throw into this workout. I heard that dan gable used to do this with strictly pushups and ive seen some guys do this with PULLUPS. amazing. have fun and good luck. feel free to ask any questions about any exercises.

SCRAPPER

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: whaledog
Date: 12-Mar-00 | 05:18 PM

Wow!

It hurts just reading this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gmelah1
Date: 12-Mar-00 | 07:18 PM

Didn't Karl Gotch come up with this workout? That guy sure knows how to show you the meaning of pain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SCRAPPER
Date: 12-Mar-00 | 07:58 PM

im not sure who came up with it. i first saw it about 8 years ago when some of my diver bros were doing it. sucked doing it then, sucks doing it now. hehe

i think ill do it tomorrow just to hear my class bitch. =)

SCRAPPER

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CWolvie
Date: 12-Mar-00 | 08:00 PM

LOL

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ILVQLOS
Date: 12-Mar-00 | 08:50 PM

Scrapper, What are bootstrappers and please explain how to do them. Thanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SCRAPPER
Date: 12-Mar-00 | 11:33 PM

BOOTSTRAPPERS are the some of the most evil leg exercises i have ever had the pleasure of doing. i like to mix them with squats and sprints to get a really nice little burn in the quads. hehe. here is a description from my bodyweight workouts:

BOOTSTRAPPERS. (4CT) BEND DOWN UNTIL YOUR ASS TOUCHES YOUR HEELS, BUT MAKE SURE YOUR HEELS ARE OFF THE GROUND. PUT YOUR HANDS ABOUT A FOOT OUT IN FRONT OF YOUR TOES AND MAKE SURE YOUR KNEES ARE INSIDE YOUR ELBOWS. STRAIGHTEN OUT YOUR LEGS UNTIL YOUR HEELS TOUCH THE GROUND THATS 1. BRING YOUR ASS BACK DOWN TILL IT TOUCHES YOUR HEELS, THATS 2. BACK UP AGAIN, THATS 3. ASS BACK DOWN TO YOUR HEELS, AND THATS 1 REP. KEEP IT A NICE FLUID MOTION AND TRY NOT TOO BOUNCE AT THE BOTTOM. GOOD QUAD/HAMSTRING WORKOUT.

you dont have to lock your legs out straight when you go up, just make sure your heels touch the ground. also, make sure that you put your weight forward on your hands so your balance isnt directly over your feet.

let me know how you like them.

SCRAPPER




NOTE: Posted as-of Apr 14, 2000 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives - http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/card.html.

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Stickgrappler's Sojourn of Septillion Steps